tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35788819.post868940840642574006..comments2023-10-12T00:18:31.629+11:00Comments on Alex's Cycle Blog: Turbocharged TrainingAlex Simmonshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00698332397074026424noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35788819.post-51190685777248457422017-06-04T08:17:42.738+10:002017-06-04T08:17:42.738+10:00Good read and couldn't agree more with a lot o...Good read and couldn't agree more with a lot of the things you touch on. Turbo training, in my opinion, can be extremely beneficial to carry out year-round. Where I live certain intervals sessions are pretty difficult to carry out, but with a turbo trainer I can concentrate on the task at hand and carry them out without any distractions. Also indoors on a smart trainer means I am hitting my targets and not over or undershooting, of course, if you have a PM this isn't an issue.Timhttp://www.vikao.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35788819.post-56731292632296314162013-08-21T09:51:07.675+10:002013-08-21T09:51:07.675+10:00The way that I have always looked at it was that t...The way that I have always looked at it was that there is an additional torque spike needed to bring the wheel back up to speed on the low inertia trainers. This would be just like climbing a steep hill. Jim Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04728669908174312818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35788819.post-35370851252287902512013-08-21T09:36:36.872+10:002013-08-21T09:36:36.872+10:00I think the easiest way to answer your quetion is ...I think the easiest way to answer your quetion is to get you to ride a low inertia magnetic resistance trainer, then ride a high(er) inertial load trainer, e.g. a Lemond revolution, under the same conditions. The difference required to pedal on each "normally" is quite pronounced.Alex Simmonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00698332397074026424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35788819.post-82607832092277811982013-08-21T06:19:52.470+10:002013-08-21T06:19:52.470+10:00Alex,
Great article. I am still however not clear...Alex,<br /><br />Great article. I am still however not clear how a variance in "inertial load" would affect my ability to produce a certain wattage. Clearly (to me at least) it would affect the wattage required to maintain a particular speed (or cadence in a particular gear at a specific resistance). I agree that it would "feel" different and require less wattage to "re-accellerate" back up to a given speed, or to maintain a particular speed. I fail to see how a larger or smaller flywheel would translate to my body being able to produce more or less watts to the cranks. What am I missing?Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05287260434923008489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35788819.post-90313803310898712012-02-22T22:40:16.749+11:002012-02-22T22:40:16.749+11:00Nice and informative post, thanks for sharing!
Da...Nice and informative post, thanks for sharing!<br /><br />Dan Bennett<br /><a href="http://www.progressivecyclecoaching.co.uk" rel="nofollow">Progressive Cycle Coaching</a>Dan Bennetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05613892141605484945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35788819.post-86558230701835092522011-06-12T17:26:27.153+10:002011-06-12T17:26:27.153+10:00Personally speaking, I prefer to train outdoors. T...Personally speaking, I prefer to train outdoors. The various weather conditions makes the ride more interesting aside from the fact that I take different routes. I do have equipment at home as not all times of the year can I go out and enjoy the fresh air.Neil Ciancihttp://www.panicaway.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35788819.post-30468789585487381092010-02-24T07:48:10.688+11:002010-02-24T07:48:10.688+11:00WRT the Mt. bike FTP differences: Wasn't there...WRT the Mt. bike FTP differences: Wasn't there a discussion a while back on wattage (it could even have been when it was hosted on Topica) about the lower wattages because of the nobbies on the tires and how they interfaced with the terrain?Jim Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04728669908174312818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35788819.post-91891199863127641782009-09-16T18:26:27.048+10:002009-09-16T18:26:27.048+10:00I ride road and trained this year for the Marmotte...I ride road and trained this year for the Marmotte, a race in the Alps. I did my intervals outside this year for this reason - I was getting too hot indoors and was worried my power was down. <br /><br />However, I struggled to get steady power on the lumpy hills in UK, and when I got to Alps for the race I was basically put back in conditions I had indoors: steady power, in very hot conditions, with no wind! As such my numbers were lower than expected and I thought I was really suffering and having a bad day. I think actually training indoors would have helped more.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04276785188279696131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35788819.post-12192025438861131842009-02-06T16:47:00.000+11:002009-02-06T16:47:00.000+11:00Just found this blog. This is a good post. Answe...Just found this blog. This is a good post. Answers a few questions of mine. I seem to be one of the few who get more watts inside...especially in group trainer sessions. I'm doing my first 20 minute test outside this weekend, so my goal will be to get similar watts on the road.Maggshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05072890393018732362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35788819.post-29220460855672687932009-01-13T20:19:00.000+11:002009-01-13T20:19:00.000+11:00My guys are riding powertaps on both MTB and Road ...My guys are riding powertaps on both MTB and Road bikes. We are busy checking everything out, because hey, if I can iron out some of these issues and lift some of these guys 20w - 30w then that is part of my job is it not :-)Bruce Dieselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09224554918504680174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35788819.post-35539058126983414592009-01-13T20:04:00.000+11:002009-01-13T20:04:00.000+11:00Yeah, all good comments guys.Bruce, I don't have a...Yeah, all good comments guys.<BR/><BR/>Bruce, I don't have an answer specifically for your dilemma other than it's probably a bunch of 5W things adding up. Not sure what PM you are using on the bikes but if it's a PT then there's probably a difference in drivetrain efficiency between bike types. And a positional difference. And maybe the neuromuscular differences from pushing the MTB/terrain is causing a few watts as well. Don't know, just speculating.<BR/><BR/>Rick, bang on and by doing that, you are just lowering your reported CTL ramp rate but as long as you are consistent in how it's applied and know the rate at which you can sustain, that's what matters.<BR/><BR/>Steve, interesting thought and certainly one to be considered. Even then, I kind of see it akin to transitioning to a focussed block of higher intensity work of Level 5+, where sustaining a CTL ramp can sometimes be difficult to achieve, yet actual fatigue is ever present even though TSB neutralises somewhat.<BR/><BR/>End of day, I expect the CTL to do certain things at certain times under given conditions, and just because it's not going up doesn't mean one isn't accumulating fatigue or not improving fitness.<BR/><BR/>It's performance that matters, not one's CTL. :)<BR/><BR/>So if one goes to altitude for a week or two of training, then I wouldn't have an expectation of CTL ramping up at the same rate. I would however if we did choose to adjust FTP for that block.<BR/><BR/>Point taken on the evidence re lower watts, same IF.Alex Simmonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00698332397074026424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35788819.post-68630456782264616842009-01-13T16:47:00.000+11:002009-01-13T16:47:00.000+11:00Alex,What about an arbitrary rule of thumb that, i...Alex,<BR/><BR/>What about an arbitrary rule of thumb that, if a training block in a specific environment/terrain/bike position were to proceed for equal to or greater than one's selected ATL TC, then using an FTP specific to that environment/terrain/bike position is probaly good? Forays between training environments within an ATL TC would be best be handled by selecting FTP by the "which training environment predominates?" rule, or if closer to a 50:50 split between training environments could be handled either by Bruce's separate FTP method, or Alex's split the FTP difference method. <BR/><BR/>Also, I have been hesitant to accept that the training adaptations are lesser indoors than outdoors (assuming lower average power indoor, but same average IF). However, there is evidence that when the same relationship exists between altitude and sea level, the training adaptations at altitude do not necessarily translate to more power at sea level (hence the greater popularity of LHTL). I'm just not aware of any other evidence WRT lesser adaptations in a lower AP / equivilent IF situation.<BR/><BR/>Another gem. Sound advice as usual.<BR/>Thanks,<BR/>Steve PalladinoSteve Palladinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01161835154829541383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35788819.post-26618084668628576582009-01-13T07:23:00.000+11:002009-01-13T07:23:00.000+11:00"Nice to know people check it out every so often."..."Nice to know people check it out every so often."<BR/><BR/>the lurkers are here. <BR/><BR/>Re the FTP bit, I keep mine at outdoor FTP year-round despite doing 90+ % of my winter training indoors. Power around FTP has shown to be somewhere around 5% lower indoors for me - though with a better fan (18" industrial puppy plus my old anemic 16" pedestal fan) I hope to close that gap this winter. <BR/><BR/>As I belive Alex was pointing out - do everything you can to close that gap (from the bottom-up of course) before crying "enough". Now, I'm talking about tracking weekly TSS, avg.IF, PMC etc -- NOT about what levels to attempt my workouts: those are strictly based on week-to-week training ... plus however delusional I am on any particular day :-) <BR/><BR/>The one factor I can't get around though is altitude ... not a factor here but if I was living at sea-level and racing at altitude or vice-versa with significant blocks of training/racing in each ... I'm not sure a single-FTP mantra would work very well. Aside from training with an oxygen cyclinder just can one do? <BR/><BR/>rickrmurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11173095939504389470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35788819.post-14747893387946572602009-01-13T05:51:00.000+11:002009-01-13T05:51:00.000+11:00To be honest, my biggest concern in this area is i...To be honest, my biggest concern in this area is in the differences between MTB and road bikes.<BR/><BR/>I am the coach of a Pro MTB team, and we are seeing a difference in power output between MTB and road. Unfortunately the guys spend up to 50% of their time on road bikes.<BR/><BR/>The only major positional difference is in Q-factor, so we are busy investigating. But the differences are certainly large enough to not sweep under the carpet - up to 30w at FTP in some instances.<BR/><BR/>Stomp tests and dynamic calibration on computrainer have all checked out fine.Bruce Dieselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09224554918504680174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35788819.post-66713432166710134162009-01-13T05:16:00.000+11:002009-01-13T05:16:00.000+11:00Now that I am getting into training with power and...Now that I am getting into training with power and have to do most of my training indoors because of work schedule your blog entry will really help me understand some things that I have been struggling with.<BR/><BR/>Thanks<BR/>JesseThe Cycling Addictionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11615001597600064722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35788819.post-4417083799732545212009-01-12T08:37:00.000+11:002009-01-12T08:37:00.000+11:00Hey BruceIf we are talking 1/7 rides being in a di...Hey Bruce<BR/><BR/>If we are talking 1/7 rides being in a different mode, then I wouldn't worry about the FTP/TSS difference, train according to the majority mode for that block of training. So if you are mostly indoors and get one outdoor ride/week, then the TSS will be a bit inflated that day. Someone might have an overall weekly CTL ramp of 4.3 instead of 4.0 No big deal.<BR/><BR/>The time course for adaptations is relatively long, so 1/7 inflated (or deflated) figures isn't going to change the overall pattern of what we see in the ATL/CTL plots.<BR/><BR/>I mean how many out there are estimating TSS for a proportion of their rides but still find the Performance Manager works well? Quite a few I suspect. That's what I meant by the model's robustness.<BR/><BR/>If the modes are equally shared, and as long as training is according to the effort level relevant for that mode, then if you really want to go with different FTPs, by all means go ahead. <BR/><BR/>Personally I'd just split the difference, maybe with a slant to FTP being closer to the higher number.<BR/><BR/>As for TSS and kJ wrt adaptations, yes what you say makes sense, although I suspect it is the difference between relative adaptations (TSS/min) and absolute adaptations (kJ/min). By relative I mean wrt your existing fitness level. By absolute I mean things like absolute oxygen uptake, ability to consume sufficient kJ etc.<BR/><BR/>Interestingly, of the riders I've coached that do a significant level of indoor work, I don't see big differences in power output.<BR/><BR/>For me lately, I recently switched from indoor threshold tolerance work to outdoor efforts and so far I haven't produced more power outdoors yet!<BR/><BR/>But it's all good discussion and thanks for your comments guys!<BR/><BR/>Nice to know people check it out every so often.Alex Simmonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00698332397074026424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35788819.post-79319272977398958292009-01-12T08:14:00.000+11:002009-01-12T08:14:00.000+11:00Ha! True dat Bill. I have nowhere near the experi...Ha! True dat Bill. I have nowhere near the experience of indoor training that my northern hemisphere cousins do (we never experience the winter weather you guys do), but I at least I listen to and learn from the ones I interact with (and coach).<BR/><BR/>As I returned to riding again, I did do all of my earlier efforts on Thunderbird 7, not because of weather but because of injury. In the last month, road rides outdoors are now more frequent than ergo rides (but it is also summer here).<BR/><BR/>In any case, it will now be a bigger part of my life than ever before.Alex Simmonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00698332397074026424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35788819.post-20044033859095313832009-01-12T03:32:00.000+11:002009-01-12T03:32:00.000+11:00Hey Alex,As you may have seen, I have been very in...Hey Alex,<BR/><BR/>As you may have seen, I have been very involved in the discussions around this topic. And there are a few things that bother me with these arguments.<BR/><BR/>Firstly, if testing my FTP in one environment (say on the road), then apply it to another (say indoors) is valid. Then surely the reverse must also be true, i.e. testing indoors and applying to outdoors. Assuming I can produce more power outdoors than I do indoors, then I am able to perform workouts of greater than 100TSS when training outdoors.<BR/><BR/>Secondly, if we correlate kJ expenditure to training adaption. Then how can 100TSS early in the season (when FTP is lower) be equivalent to 100TSS later in the season, when FTP is higher and overall kJ expenditure is higher for that worjout?<BR/><BR/>I know this sounds like nit-picking, and I agree that these things should only be taken into account when all other attempts to equalise environments have been exhausted. But I have experienced this issue with most of the athletes I coach, in fact, I have very seldom found athletes that are equivalent indoors, outdoors, on road bikes and MTB bikes.<BR/><BR/>BruceBruce Dieselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09224554918504680174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35788819.post-79025785564517862792009-01-12T00:33:00.000+11:002009-01-12T00:33:00.000+11:00Nicely said and true -- but I'm not sure that a ma...Nicely said and true -- but I'm not sure that a man from "down-under" can ever truly embrace indoor training unless you are significantly further down under than Oz.<BR/><BR/>Best,<BR/>Bill BlackAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com